So many ideas backing up in the pipeline, but things are super busy at work and home right now. Leisure time is at a premium, and if I don’t leise, I run out of material. So.
At any rate, Gita (Nathan Alexander on Twitter) and I, and some others, had a nice exchange earlier that I wanted to share here. I beg your pardon in regards to formatting; tweet threads aren’t always the easiest things to embed, and we’ve got multiple strands branching off. Some comments may have been lost to the ether here, and some may appear more than once. Also it’s going to look like on long block of tweets. Fun.
The start of the chain:
-Bushi
PC Bushi 
If ANY of the idiots involved would like to know, the oxygen came from the worms. Herbert made that PRETTY clear. You know, for anyone who actually read the book and could comprehend “big boy words”. Obviously, posers who just want to complain wouldn’t know that.
*and this is why I’m not on social media*
LikeLiked by 4 people
Yup, someone added that in a separate, small chain that I didn’t include. Can’t believe I don’t retain stuff like that after reading it like five times. Oi. Thanks for pointing this fact out, Bookstooge!
LikeLiked by 1 person
ok, phew. I got so steamed I just commented away without finishing the rest of the tweet/conversation :-)
LikeLiked by 1 person
and if that got covered in later tweets, then well, all the more reason I’m not on twitter.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Saying Herbert didn’t address the ecology is like saying Tolkien skimped on the language.
LikeLiked by 2 people
:-D
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dune is a good book. John Carter is awesome. I have nothing else to say.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think part of the appeal of magic and fantasy is that there don’t have to be rules. Or rather, if there are rules, they’re best hidden from the reader. Mystery is important. My eyes glaze over so quickly whenever a modern epic fantasy writer starts blathering on about his “magic system”, because at that point I’m not reading fantasy but a sort of science fiction that simply uses alternate reality physics.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I am sorry but it just reads like nathan hasn’t read anything and is just using other people’s talking points. Couldn’t you describe Brust’s Taltos series as a guy just wandering around killing black elves?
LikeLike
I mean in his defense, he’s read a bunch of pulp stuff, though he admits there’s a lot he hasn’t read and he’s actively seeking it out. He’s said he *wants* to like pulp, but so far nothing has really drawn him in.
I respect his honestly, and I chalk it up to taste, even if I disagree with him on points like plot or writing quality. I kind of see it as relevant to what I’ve talked about before – there are various types of SFF (like “hard scifi”), and they all have their own audiences. Sometimes they overlap, and sometimes they don’t.
LikeLike
Your veiw just doesn’t seem evident from the tweets you selected. Everything he said is factually wrong and not an opinion. The plot of pulps not even rising to the level of water rights in the western is factually wrong from the stories he said he read and found lacking. The caspack series starts with American and British sailors trying to stop a german submarine from terrorizing sea lanes. I haven’t even read John Carter and I known one of the stories deals with the air running out on mars.
LikeLike
Sorry black elves is cherryh. They are just extra dimensional elves in burst. And for some one complaining about genre crossing between sci-fi and fantasy to bring up brust who’s whole fantasy world is built off the scientific experiments of the extra dimensional aliens is just crazy.
LikeLike
[shrug]
LikeLike
Okay, I spent a little time thinking about plot, so your challenge actually did some good.
Maybe “no plot” is the wrong way to put it.
What is plot?
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_(narrative) , Plot is: the sequence of events inside a story which affect other events through the principle of cause and effect.
So from that point of view, yes, everything REH and ERB wrote have plots.
But I still don’t think they are very good ones.
Let’s take the first story in “The Coming of Conan”. (I have read most of the original REH Conan novels, but 30 years ago, so we’ll just this short story).
What is the plot? A man wants to be king, so plots against the king, who is Conan. He arranges for an assassination squad. Conan has a dream where a God gives him a magic weapon. Conan defeats the assassination squad, except the last one is read to kill him before a demon appears, then Conan kills it with the magic weapon.
So, yeah, there’s a plot, but it’s not a very good one.
Why do we care about Conan? Is he a good king? We don’t know.
Where is the conflict?
Does anything bad happen if Conan is replaced as king? Sure, he’d be killed, but we know nothing about the country, or the people. Why should we care?
Does he do anything difficult to stop the assassination? No, a demon appears.
Does he do anything difficult or special to stop the demon? No, a god gave him a magic sword.
There was *one* bit of interesting development: Conan is nearly killed because he was shocked at the minstrel’s betrayal, and human emotion keeps him from striking the minstrel down immediately.
If anything, the most interesting person, the person who chooses and changes the most, is Thoth-Amon. He had power, lost it when a thief took his ring. He had to flee or be killed from the enemies he made when he had power. In disguise, he’s nearly killed by bandits, but his life is spared when he pledges to serve as a slave. Then his ring comes within his reach again…how does he react to the loss of power vs restoration of his power? That could be a fascinating glimpse into human nature. But he’s the bad guy, so we can’t care about him.
Now compare to Brust’s Jhereg (spoilers!):
An assassin is seduced by greed and ego to take a difficult job. He finds out the job isn’t as straightforward as he thought. If he doesn’t do the job, he’ll be killed. Then he finds out there’s a reason to hurry. If he doesn’t hurry, he’ll be killed. But if he hurries, he might be unprepared, and killed by the target. Then he discovers the target wants to die, but only a certain way. He finds out that if he does his job, his friend will be dishonored. Now, you may not care about Morollan and his honor, but you can understand and sympathize with the assassin not wanting to force his friend to lose something important to him. Then we find out that the target is trying to destroy 3 houses of the Jhereg. Which the assassin would LOVE to have happen. Now there’s some major conflict to be resolved: The assassin has multiple reasons to want to stop the target’s plot, but also has multiple reasons to want the target’s plot to succeed. So he develops a plan, the one thing that could resolve all these conflicts safely. Then the plan goes wrong.
There is escalation throughout.
Brust lets us get to know the characters, gives us some reason to care about the characters and what they want, makes even the target somewhat sympathetic, and then lets the struggles play out.
Now, to be fair, we’ve compared a short story to a novel. A novel will naturally be more complex, having more length.
So let’s bring in ERB’s The Land That Time Forgot.
What’s the plot? A man is going to war. His boat is sank, he captures the submarine that did it. No way to run a submarine, unless you just happen to have experience piloting one…He just happens to make submarines for a living! He tries to get home, but gets lost. There is some conflict because there is a hidden traitor. He finds an unknown continent. No way to get in, unless you have a submarine. He just happens to have one! He gets inside, and there are dinosaurs inside. They are dangerous, and randomly grab someone. It just happens to not be the hero! Now they have food and water, but no fuel for the sub. Hey, they just happen to find oil! They still haven’t resolved the issue with the Germans, oh, hey, the Germans run off with the sub!
Oh, I forgot, there’s a girl. He loves her because she is beautiful. How do we know she’s beautiful? The author told us. She loves the hero, he loves her. He doesn’t trust her for a while. Oh, wait, he was wrong. She forgives him.
There are some minor conflicts: the hidden traitor, the problem about the trust between the girl and the hero, how to deal with hostile prisoners.
But at no point is there much doubt about the outcome of any conflict. The hero is the leader because of course he is. He can command the sub because of course he can. When he needs to kill a dinosaur, of course he can. He can overcome the German commander one on one because of course he can.
Back to wikipedia:
“A plot device is a means of advancing the plot in a story. It is often used to motivate characters, create urgency, or resolve a difficulty. This can be contrasted with moving a story forward with dramatic technique; that is, by making things happen because characters take action for well-developed reasons. An example of a plot device would be when the cavalry shows up at the last moment and saves the day in a battle. In contrast, an adversarial character who has been struggling with himself and saves the day due to a change of heart would be considered dramatic technique.”
If I had to characterize The Land that Time Forgot, it would be that it is just a series of plot devices, rather than a plot. Or to the extent that it has a plot, it isn’t very good.
And it doesn’t get any better in the sequel, The People That Time Forgot. I set the book down when I got busy, and had zero desire to pick it back up again.
In its favor, there is a great What If aspect to the trilogy: What if there were a lost continent that had dinosaurs and primitive humans? Then what if the inhabitants recapitulated evolution as a personal development process?
Okay, the 2nd is way out there, and I don’t really see the reason for it, but at least there is a What If to explore.
These are milieu books: set up a world, then let the character explore the world, letting us see it through his eyes. The interest is in seeing how this world compares to ours, how the changes in the world cause changes in the humans, or in human society.
Except it really doesn’t. ERB gives us a series of snapshots, but the world never really becomes 3D.
Compare to Heinlein’s Tunnel in the Sky, where the question is “What if a bunch of young adults were stranded on a strange planet and had to create their own civilization?” Definitely a milieu story, but not *just* a milieu story. There is character growth and exploration of human nature and the nature of civilization.
Or compare to Larry Niven’s milieu stories, Destiny’s Road (what if people lived on a planet that lacked any natural source of a vital mineral?), the Smoke Ring duology (what if a society evolved in a weightless environment?). He tells a story with a plot, character that have goals and issues we care about, while *still* exploring a strange world. One of the interesting things about Niven is he wrote several novels about societies based on an Elite enslaving the Common People via monopoly over a scarce vital resource. He explores that theme over and over, in the two stories above, plus The Gift From Earth (human organs), World Out of Time (immortality), and probably more I can’t think of yet.
Both you and I cited Cherryh.
To be fair, Cherryh has some books without any real plot. Her Fortress series is just a self-licking ice cream cone. As is the Rusalka series. Both do provide some insight into human nature, the nature of fear and love, and how those are exploited…but after finishing each of those, I felt like I do reading ERB and REH: why did I just read that? What was the *point* of the story? In REH and ERB, it’s because I don’t care much about the outcome because there wasn’t much escalation, too many plot devices, and the characters don’t earn my care. In those two Cherryh series, it’s because after all those words describing so much action, nothing really changes in the world. I guess you could say that in Rusalka there was finally a restoration of normality, but I just didn’t care that much.
In contrast, Cyteen drags you into the lives of an evil woman who is cloned, and how her clone reacts to the attempts to recreate the evil woman’s personality, in connection with interactions with the young, sympathetic man the evil old woman deliberately abused…conflict in that the man wants nothing to do with the clone, the clone is fascinated by the young man and has the power to force his proximity. Lots of personal conflict, tough decisions, changing character, people under pressure, sacrificial decisions, etc. A fascinating exploration how conflict, struggle, and pain are the challenges that stimulate growth, and the ethics of using those tools deliberately to try to bring about that growth in others.
Let’s make this even more complex, and bring in ERB’s John Carter. It’s been a while since I’ve read any. I enjoyed them okay when I was 15. I tried re-reading Princess of Mars 5 years ago, and got bored before I finished.
I won’t run through all the things I consider plot inadequacies, but I’ll hit a few points:
– Yes, there’s loyalty, in that Carter saves Tarkas’ life, and Tarkas returns the favor…but to me, that pales in comparison to Vlad Taltos’ considering it better to let himself be killed rather than force his friend to go back on his promise that guests are safe. Of course, Vlad figures out to resolve that conflict, but Vlad’s loyalty is more poignant to me than the “You save my life, so I save yours” exchange.
– Yes, there’s romance, but just like in the Land that Time Forgot, we are told that Dejah Thoris is the most beautiful woman ever, so John Carter loves her and is blessed to earn her love. Yay. I don’t find it convincing or compelling.
There are some things in the Barsoom series favor:
– It is based somewhat on the science available at the time (canals!)
– If you want a hero with superhuman strength, it makes sense that it would be an alien that grew up on another planet with 3x the gravity. This is good What If science fiction.
But consider this: how much more poignant, how much more depth, how much more interesting would the whole Barsoom cycle be if John Carter had been torn away from a wife and child, or (worse!) a young, pregnant wife on Earth?
That would make his attraction to Thoris a conflict. That would make his return to earth after asphyxiation a mixed blessing. That would add emotion to his every success on Mars: it all came at the expense of an innocent woman and child back on Earth…and yet, it wasn’t of his own choosing, he is powerless to go back (so why shouldn’t he make their loss mean something good for Barsoom?), and is she also moving on with her life back on Earth (and is it even possibly better than if he’d stayed?)?
That one change would deeply alter the Barsoom series, making it a truly sublime exploration of the nature of love, and purpose, and dealing with loss.
LikeLike